John MacArthur on Mark Driscoll
John MacArthur also took his stab at the potty-mouth pastor on a 2006 Crosswalk article.
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We keep hearing from evangelical strategists and savvy church leaders that Christians need to be more tuned into contemporary culture.
You have no doubt heard the arguments: We need to take the message out of the bottle. We can’t minister effectively if don’t speak the language of contemporary counterculture. If we don’t vernacularize the gospel, contextualize the church, and reimagine Christanity for each succeeding generation, how can we possibly reach young people? Above all else, we have got to stay in step with the times.
Those arguments have been stressed to the point that many evangelicals now seem to think unstylishness is just about the worst imaginable threat to the expansion of the gospel and the influence of the church. They don’t really care if they are worldly. They just don’t want to be thought uncool.
That way of thinking has been around at least since Modernism began its aggressive assault on biblical Christianity in the Victorian era. For half a century or more, most evangelicals resisted the pragmatic thrust of the modernist argument, believing it was a fundamentally worldly philosophy. They had enough biblical understanding to realize that “friendship with the world is enmity with God. Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God” (James 4:4).
But the mainstream evangelical movement gave up the battle against worldliness half a century ago, and then completely capitulated to pragmatism just a couple of decades ago. After all, most of the best-known megachurches that rose to prominence after 1985 were built on a pragmatic philosophy of giving “unchurched” people whatever it takes to make them feel comfortable. Why would anyone criticize what “works”?
Whole churches have thus deliberately immersed themselves in “the culture” – by which they actually mean “whatever the world loves at the moment.” We now have a new breed of trendy churches whose preachers can rattle off references to every popular icon, every trifling meme, every tasteless fashion, and every vapid trend that captures the fickle fancy of the postmodern secular mind.
Worldly preachers seem to go out of their way to put their carnal expertise on display – even in their sermons. In the name of connecting with “the culture” they want their people to know they have seen all the latest programs on MTV; familiarized themselves with all the key themes of “South Park”; learned the lyrics to countless tracks of gangsta rap and heavy metal music; and watched who-knows-how-many R-rated movies. They seem to know every fad top to bottom, back to front, and inside out. They’ve adopted both the style and the language of the world—including lavish use of language that used to be deemed inappropriate in polite society, much less in the pulpit. They want to fit right in with the world, and they seem to be making themselves quite comfortable there.
Mark Driscoll is one of the best-known representatives of that kind of thinking. He is a very effective communicator – a bright, witty, clever, funny, insightful, crude, profane, deliberately shocking, in-your-face kind of guy. His soteriology is exactly right, but that only makes his infatuation with the vulgar aspects of contemporary society more disturbing.
Driscoll ministers in Seattle, birthplace of “grunge” music and heart of the ever-changing subculture associated with that movement. Driscoll’s unique style and idiom might aptly be labeled “post-grunge.” His language – even in his sermons – is deliberately crude. He is so well known for using profane language that in Blue Like Jazz (p. 133), Donald Miller (popular author and icon of the “Emerging Church” movement, who speaks of Driscoll with the utmost admiration) nicknamed him “Mark the Cussing Pastor.”
I don’t know what Driscoll’s language is like in private conversation, but I listened to several of his sermons. To be fair, he didn’t use the sort of four-letter expletives most people think of as cuss words – nothing that might get bleeped on broadcast television these days. Still, it would certainly be accurate to describe both his vocabulary and his subject matter at times as tasteless, indecent, crude, and utterly inappropriate for a minister of Christ. In every message I listened to, at least once he veered into territory that ought to be clearly marked off limits for the pulpit.
Some of the things Driscoll talks freely and frequently about involve words and subject matter I would prefer not even to mention in public, so I am not going to quote or describe the objectionable parts. Besides, the issue has already been discussed and dissected at several blogs. Earlier this year, Tim Challies cited one typical example of Driscoll’s vulgar flippancy from Confessions of a Reformission Rev. The sermons I listened to also included several from Driscoll’s “Vintage Jesus” series. For example:
Including the one Phil Johnson critiqued in October.
The point I want to make is not about Driscoll’s language per se, but about the underlying philosophy that assumes following society down the Romans 1 path is a valid way to “engage the culture.” It’s possible to be overexposed to our culture’s dark side. I don’t think anyone can survive full immersion in today’s entertainments and remain spiritually healthy.
Let’s face it: Many of the world’s favorite fads are toxic, and they are becoming increasingly so as our society descends further in its spiritual death-spiral. It’s like a radioactive toxicity, so while those who immerse themselves in it might not notice its effects instantly, they nevertheless cannot escape the inevitable, soul-destroying contamination. And woe to those who become comfortable with the sinful fads of secular society. The final verse of Romans 1 expressly condemns those “who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”
Even when you marry such worldliness with good systematic theology and a vigorous defense of substitutionary atonement, the soundness of the theoretical doctrine doesn’t sanctify the wickedness of the practical lifestyle. The opposite happens. Solid biblical doctrine is trivialized and mocked if we’re not doers of the Word as well as teachers of it.
We could learn from the example of Paul, who engaged the philosophers on Mars Hill. But far from embracing their culture, he was repulsed by it. Acts 17:16 says, “while Paul waited for [Silas and Timothy] at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols.”
When Paul spoke to that culture, he didn’t adopt Greek scatology to show off how hip he could be. He simply declared the truth of God’s Word to them in plain language. And not all of his pagan listeners were happy with that (v.18). That’s to be expected. Jesus said, “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:18-19).
Even Jesus’ high priestly prayer included a thorough description of the Christian’s proper relationship with and attitude toward the world: “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world” (John 17:14-16).
Whenever Jesus spoke of believers’ being in the world, He stated that if we are faithful, the world will be a place of hostility and persecution, not a zone of comfort. He also invariably followed that theme with a plea for our sanctification (cf. John 17:17-19).
The problem with the “grunge” approach to religion is that it works against the sanctifying process. In fact, in one of the messages I listened to, Driscoll actually boasted that his sanctification goes no higher than his shoulders. His defense of substitutionary atonement might help his disciples gain a good grasp of the doctrine of justification by faith; but the lifestyle he models – especially his easygoing familiarity with all this world’s filthy fads – practically guarantees that they will make little progress toward authentic sanctification.
I frankly wonder how any Christian who takes the Bible at face value could ever think that in order to be “culturally relevant” Christians should participate in society’s growing infatuation with vulgarity. Didn’t vulgarity and culture used to be considered polar opposites?
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I too have listened to Mark Driscolls sermons (on internet)and have been impressed with his teaching. However I too was impressed (in a negative way) with his flippant and vulgar language. He presents a dichotomy- and I don’t think that is appropriate for one who speaks from the pulpit. I appreciated John McArthurs honest appraisal, and I believe John is correct.
Both John and Mark are great preachers but to very different types of people. John’s church is like walking into the Opera House to see a grand master play piano, and that is great for some. Mark is a very different guy to this. Just let him be who God has made him, he’s preaching the gospel so just let him do it well.
New wine in new wine skins?
It has recently became apparent to me that God gives different messages to different people (these are called prophets) for different times and different peoples. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church are bringing the message of the Gospel to the least churched, most Godless city in America. Through the ministries of Mars Hill, literally thousands of people have been saved in a city where, according to Mark, dogs outnumber Christians. I will admit that sometimes Mark’s vernacular seems uncultured by the standards of John McArthur, but the Gospel he preaches is uncompromised. The life of love and purity he calls us to remains uncompromised as well. In a city where self-centered individual achievement takes precedence over loving our enemies and our neighbor, Mark Driscol is exactly what the city of Seattle needs. My question for Mr. McArthur would be, why have movements like yours, R.C Sproul’s and other more “appropriate ministers” of the Gospel failed to reach cities like Seattle, Portland or San Francisco? This also begs the question of why Mars Hill has been able to build a city of believers inside this Godless city, where traditional missionary movements have failed?
ecclesia reformata semper reformanda est
It is very interesting that we become so polite when the real point is not how much polite language we use, but at the end, how many people come to Christ. It is insulting that a minister of God like MacArthur speak bad about another minister of God that brings people to Christ. It is very sad, very sad!
“the real point is not how much polite language we use, but at the end, how many people come to Christ.”
Dave, if I were to say, “The real point in life is not how polite we are to one another, but about being born,” I think you would agree with me that that statement is too reductionistic. Life is about being born, but it is also about growing up, learning, and relating with others.
The real point is not about how many people come to Christ. Christ, being Sovereign, already knows how many people will come to Him. He’s not fretting to see if at the end, will any of the heavenly mansions still have “vacancy” signs lit up. Our concern is to keep growing in godly character (in speech, conduct, faith and love). Thus, learning to speak to one another in Christ-like character (including politeness) is very important. Evangelism is part of growing in godly character, but it is not the singular “real point at the end;” it is one of many.
I have been to Mars Hill Church, and what you describe does not even come close to my experience… every message I have heard there has been all about the Jesus of the bible!… and that is what is all about. Yes, the style of delivery is not from the “traditional” church of my childhood, but Jesus is being preached, changing lives, and ALIVE and well at Mars Hill.
I have been to Mars Hill Church multiple times and have heard Pastor Driscoll messages on iTunes multiple times, but have yet to hear the ‘potty mouth’ discourse that Will mentions. (Rest of posting deleted by moderator.)
Mike, if you read the article above in its entirety, you would have noted that even Donald Miller names Driscoll “the Cussing Pastor” in his book. You are always welcome to express your opinions, whether in agreement or disagreement from the article, just like Linda did. But the second part of your comment was inflammatory. Please read the blog posting on Netiquette (the “search” feature at the top of the side column can help find this article) so that future comments may circumvent unnecessary editting.
In regards to the article, I agree with MacArthur’s assessment. See as was stated in the article you really have to know church history a bit and see that this is not a new concept, but a old one reborn. throughout the history of the church there have been fads and waves of people and groups trying to reinvent the wheel so to speak. As regards to being culturally relevant there is a place for that, but in regards to the pulpit and the preaching of the word. there should be no more revered and respected place on the planet! The church is not to be culturally out of touch, but at the same time not supposed to be so caught up in the world that there isnt a distinction. The church is called to be set apart, not in isolation, but in reverence for the word and the man and people who have died for it.
I recently attended a Tex and Context conference at Mars Hill Church in Seatlle. I am happy to say that the furit of godliness exists and is very testable. I met men who had been totally delivered from a life of sin; I met women who had left satisfying careers to follow God’s call to become keepers of their homes. Additionally, I have not seen any church, including MacArthur’s that has such rigorous accountability to Biblical holiness required of church members. In talking with one Mars Hill Pastor, I discovered that the average membership class begins at 300 individuals and ends at 75 because of thier insistance that covenantal membership includes regualar accountability for the nitty-gritty issues of daily living.
As far as MacArthur’s suggestion that such mission-minded pastors are selling out to the culture for comfort reasons, Mark Driscoll has had death threats and public attempts on his life. He is also named as one of the top ten evangelical leaders to be hated by the Left.
My question is this – If we are bound by the Scriptures, then why doesn’t someone as respected as MacArthur follow the Matthew 18 guideline to approach Mark with his faults privately. Mark has offered to fly down and submit to his reproof – publicly. When I last looked, sowing discord among brothers was also on the list as an abomination to our God.
Finally, I have heard and seen Mark offer public apology for his errors on a frequent basis. Not so with some of our other friends. Maybe they have reached a point in their sanctification where they no longer offend.
I am in agreement with MacArthur. I’m 22, and I understand the desire to engage in such conversations. However, the things he talks about in the pulpit are not sacred in the least bit. People think that de-professionalizing the ministry (which in itself is a necessary concept) means becoming vulgar and crude like the world; it means engaging topics the world isn’t “afraid” to discuss, like masturbation, oral sex, or whatever else. Do you people really think that kind of thing didn’t go on in Bible times? Are you really that clueless? Yet, the prophets and apostles didn’t walk around saying, “Listen, oral sex is great in marriage… man… it’s a blessing.” Paul merely spoke about fornication and adultery, condemning it in general without getting specific. Since when have we felt the need to “discuss” things openly that even Scriptural writers didn’t comment on?
Oh, and Ethan, the Matthew 18 punch gets thrown around a lot, so I should at least quickly answer your question.
One, that is an issue of church discipline. Mark is another pastor in another place preaching other things… openly.
Two, when Peter was in sin in Galatians, did Paul pull him aside and say, “Listen, before I go public with this, you ought to know that you’re sinning”? No, he didn’t. Peter publicly, and with full knowledge of his sin, committed sin by ignoring the Gentiles in the presence of elite Jews. Paul publicly called him out.
As far as the people you met at Driscoll’s church… great. No doubt, he has had some good effects. As MacArthur said, his soteriology is rock-solid. And, if you haven’t heard some of the stories of the Grace members (I’ve attended there 4 years while at school, without even being a member), perhaps you should try “talking” to them as well. There are some remarkable things happening there, so what you said in this case is irrelevant to anything MacArthur is speaking against. Watch out for those bunny trails and judge rightly.
Also, “death threats” are tossed around to everyone. The fact is that Driscoll gets a greater following by endearing himself to worldly-minded people who would like to follow Christ and talk about grossly sexual things at the same time. Rather or not he gets death threats is, again, pretty irrelevant.
And, if Driscoll is having to apologize on a “frequent basis”, as you say Ethan, doesn’t that present a problem (elders in 1 Timothy, although sinful human beings, are to show themselves “above reproach”). It’s one thing to sin privately and have to constantly confess those sins (we all do this); but, when certain private sins of his are becoming so great that he can’t contain them publicly, something is wrong (and, before you cut down a straw man, I’m not saying private sins are okay; not my point). So, if constantly having to confess public sin is a mark of a great pastor to you, have fun picking churches… there are plenty like that here in America. It should be an easy job for you.
I think MacArthur hits the nail on the head with all he says. Contextualization is stupid… the gospel does not change, so why do we think our message needs to? New fads… same truthful, hard gospel message.
I have been attending Mars Hill Church for the past 2 years. Here are my points:
1. Language– As John MacArthur said, Mark does not use the four letter words that most people think as “profanity” and none of Mark’s language is beeped out. So what is the problem? Do you think that Paul, when calling some “dogs” (Philippians 3:2) meant to use a “nice” word? Or Jesus, calling Pharisees “brood of vipers” (Matthew 12:34), was that “vulgar” language?
2. MacArthur– Since when does John MacArthur has such wonderful abilities which allow him to see peoples souls? He says “His [Mark's] defense of substitutionary atonement might help his disciples gain a good grasp of the doctrine of justification by faith; but the lifestyle he models – especially his easygoing familiarity with all this world’s filthy fads – practically guarantees that they will make little progress toward authentic sanctification”. WOW, Mark’s lifestyle GUARANTEES that his disciples will make little progress toward authentic sanctification. WOW. It would be nice if John actually saw people’s lives changed after hearing about Jesus from Mark.
3. Exclusiveness– John MacArthur and his movement are way too exclusive. He and others like him make rules that are not in the Bible. He has decided that certain things are “ungodly” and then basically undermines all of the ministry and the effort and JESUS’s WORK! JESUS’s WORK that is done in Seattle.
4. Also– I do NOT, I do NOT say that Mark Driscoll, my pastor, is right at all the things that he does and says and the strategies he uses are all 100% godly and he never sins. I have some concerns of my own with some aspects of the church BUT I love Jesus, I love my church and I love my pastor. Because Mars Hill is where I, and many others (25% of the listeners at a given service are not Christians) hear about Jesus, repentance from sin, and holiness every Sunday.
So to John MacArthur and others like him–We will never agree on everything, so please let us respect each other and do Jesus’ work together, instead of fighting.
I wonder who ghost-wrote MacArthur’s article about Driscoll. I doubt MacArthur has a clue as to the contemporary meaning of the word grunge.
Clete, very true.
If you actually listened to Driscoll he addresses the “cussing pastor” many times. He jokes about, but what else could you do, lie a bout it? He says he has matured since then. Please, get a life. I am not sure if MacArthur wrote this out of boredom or depression, but either one is extremely lame.
So, when Paul quoted the poets (famous artists of the time) did he study them at all or was he not involved in the culture at all and just got lucky? “In him we live, move, and breathe, for we are his offspring.” That’s not in the Bible, that is the modern poets writings about their own gods and Paul quoted it. So was Paul ungodly for being so immersed in the culture or is it not a sin to be engaged in culture? Paul had to find common ground to level with people, usually I agree with MacArthur on his exegesis of Scripture but to make this argument is ridiculous. Paul quoted THEIR poets for a reason.
Both are great pastors, I’m sure. But, as was stated in this article, they minister to very different people. It takes a lot of godly courage to minister in the places that Driscoll does, places most pastors won’t go. If most pastors did go to those places, no one would listen to their squeaky-clean, upper-middle class agenda.
Driscoll’s doing what’s best in God’s eyes, because he’s getting into the places where the least and the lost are. If he has to meet the culture where it is, good. He’s doing what’s best for those around him–like Luther, Calvin, Dr. King, and many others who we title “Pioneers” or “Rebels” after they perish.
We have to worship God and love people, not worship tradition and ignore people.
“We join the oppressors of those we choose to ignore.” ~Derek Webb
Hi
Whoever this Mark Driscoll is, he doesn’t deserve the pulpit. The pulpit is a place where God-fearing men preaches to the people of God and all our lives depend on it, because He actually speaks the heart of God through the Spirit. I’ve seen a clip where he said the church needs “dudes”. Now whatever he possibly meant by that, i don’t know. I didn’t have the time to listen any further. What I do know is that he’s definitely not preaching the God-FEARED WORD. This guy need to be removed from the pulpit and seriously need the Word to comfort his troubled soul.
This debate is not even necessary and I am surprised MacArthur would be critical of Driscoll at all. Mac Arthur should be thrilled that a deep, expository preacher is teaching the true doctrines of the Bible to people who need it most. Being separate from the world according to Scripture is being separate from the world’s sin not the world’s culture. MacArthur wears a suit, Driscoll wears blue jeans both they both preach the same message.
[...] is well-known that there is no love lost for Driscoll among conservative Christians or specifically people in the SBC. In fact, while at the conference I found myself coming across [...]
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I was very disappointed to read John MacArthur’s comments about Mark Driscoll. My husband and I are in our early 60’s and have been in conservative churches in the Northwest since the mid 70’s. We have sat under great American and English preachers at Cannon Beach Conference Center. But Mark Driscoll proclaims the Word of God so clearly, so Biblically, and hits this generation of teens thru early 60’s in such a clear way with no compromise. After reading MacArthur’s negative comment, I challenge him to listen to an entire series like I and 2 Peter that he is now in and find one thing he would disagree with. My kids love Mark and he reaches NW people like nobody can do. I think MacArthur may be jealous or just not listened. His language is totally great, no swear words, and if you think “dude” is a bad word, you are totally legalistic, Dude!
Jeanie, thanks for sharing your positive perspective about Mark Driscoll, but John MacArthur isn’t the only one criticizing Mark Driscoll about his tongue. In the book, Blue Like Jazz, the author, Donald Miller, refers to Mark Driscoll as “The Cussing Pastor.” And Donald Miller is someone who is part of the emergent movement along similar lines with Mark Driscoll and happens to also be good friends with Mark Driscoll. So when you have not just someone like John MacArthur calling Mark Driscoll a profanity-laced pastor, but Donald Miller, who’s part of Mark Driscoll’s circle of friends, writing in a book that Mark Driscoll is “the cussing pastor,” there’s more validity against your view of Mark Driscoll’s vocabulary.
Mark jokes about that, and says he’s grown up since then. It’s already been posted in the comments, and I can attest to it as one who has attended MH for the last year. The only “four letter word” he’s EVER used is hell. And if you’re not talking about hell at some point, are you sure you’re a Christian? The time Donald Miller writes about (and I’ve read the book) is a loooong time ago, especially in regards to Mark’s spiritual maturity given the studying he does. And if you read Confessions of a Reformission Rev, he’ll tell you that. And he says in the book that he wasn’t even that mature when he was writing it, yet he’s come so far beyond when he first started the church! Let’s look at guys like MacArthur and Piper and Packer at the beginning of their walk with God and see some of the things they still struggle with today. Mark publicly repents of sin because he’s trying to set an example for the church. Yes, sin gets in the way of good preaching. So he’s trying to grow in Christ and get rid of it! And by the way, Mark will tell you that he’s friends with Miller, but doesn’t agree with all of his theology. Again, if you’re going to criticize guy, at least understand where he’s coming from and read stuff in context so you (meaning all of the critics on the blog and elsewhere, not just Will) don’t make yourselves look like fools.
Not sure what cussing has actually occurred during this sermon?
I am sure God wants us to be sure that we preach the gospel faithfully and live a holy life among the pagans. but we must love each other and go to our brother privately if we are offended by his behaviour. I agree we should not follow cultural fashion to become relevant as sons of God but we should be divisive either.
The only person that comes out of this looking badly is John MacArthur. I’ve had new or young believers look at what was said about Driscoll and they came away thinking that people are only complaining due to jealousy. I hated to admit it, but I think these young ones are correct.
Jesus was known as a drunkard and glutton to the religious leaders. I’m sure Driscoll thinks he’s in good company.
(for the record, no one ever says anything specific about Driscoll, just generalities. that sounds like gossip to me)
Have you seen the fake Driscoll twitter? Hilarious! http://twitter.com/fakedriscoll
I think that, like it or not, Driscoll’s ministry has done a LOT of good spreading the Gospel in what is widely known as the least churched city in the United States. I think you may be doing good to direct constructive criticism to Driscoll directly, but to propagandize against him is counterproductive.
His ministry and church is big and prosperous, but I don’t think that gives you license to attack it. I believe you are wrong to do so. You should, rather, praise God for it. Mars Hill is a Bible believing, God fearing church that God is using to do a lot of good for His Kingdom. I am not a part of Mars Hill Church, but I live in Seattle and I know a lot of folks that have come to know the Gospel through Driscoll’s ministry. He is an imperfect Christian man who is being sanctified like the rest of us, and he would be the first to let you know that.
Ever since I began really listening to Mark Driscoll I have re-awakened to Christ. He preaches boldly. He preaches with authority and because of this HE OFFENDS. Are you offended? Is John MacArthur offended? Anyone who wants to sanitize Christianity would be. Were Pharisees offended when Jesus had dinner with former prostitutes? When he hung out with tax collectors? Pretty obvious to see where I am going with this. Life on earth is not pretty people but I’ll tell you this, Mark can reach people with Jesus that John MacArthur cannot. Let Mark do his thing.
I’m with ya, Gabriel.
Yeah, I’ve listened to an awful lot of Driscoll sermons now and haven’t heard any “cuss” words. I think he said, “Get the hell out!” once in reference to some guy trying to take over his church… and I *think* he may have said “pissed” once, though I can’t remember for sure.
I have a bit of a “cussing” problem myself that I’m really not proud of and continually give to God… I usually start to swear when I get super passionate about something… particularily when talking to my younger, drug-addicted brother about how he doesn’t need to get all his ducks in a row to come to Christ. I know that may sound lame to some of you, and scandalous to others, but I assure you… I’m not proud of this. I guess I just feel like I could relate to a “cussing” pastor.
Show a little grace, people. Our world desperately needs more grace. Our churches desperately need more grace.
I’ll probably regret commenting on this because people will always read into it whatever they want, but Jordan’s comments, I think, really miss the mark of what the discussion is about.
(1) Jordan seems to think because he has a “bit of a ‘cussing’ problem” that everyone should ignore the fact that Driscoll cusses. As a pastor, Driscoll declares himself to be specially called not only to deliver the gospel but to lead by word and example those entrusted to his care (see Timothy and Titus). Driscoll does not argue, as Jordan does, that he has a bit of a cussing problem. Driscoll does not apologize for crudity and, in fact, flaunts it. That’s the difference. Every one of us should be tolerant of each other as we seek to grow in Christ, yet sometimes slip. (And tolerance is not ignoring a problem. It is reaching out to help even in reproof, rebuke, and correction without a haughty, judgmental false piety that some would exhibit.) But when a pastor encourages (by his behavior) a flair for crudity, I think he is at cross interests with the promotion of godliness to the edification of the body of Christ.
(2) The Bible talks about the Gospel being an offense to the world. And to the extent that Driscoll preaches the Gospel, the world is offended. But again, that is not the point of the controversy. It is not the Gospel that is offending other Christians in Mark’s preaching behavior. It is Mark’s crudity. And the Bible nowhere explains that we must be crude to deliver the Gospel–and then that is why people will be offended. That’s ridiculous to even suggest that Mark’s crude offense is related to his Gospel offense.
(3) Jesus did not eat with prostitutes and taxgatherers and sinners because he wanted to join in their sin. It is amazing how many people will use Christ’s action in going into the world to save sinners out of their sin to defend their own actions and desires to wallow in the world of sin.
(4) Yes, this world is not full of “pretty people.” And those who like to dress the outside and insist on others dressing the outside just so everyone can appear “pretty” are lacking in biblical judgment, thought, and action. We will always be faced with ugliness in the world, in the church, and in our own selves. But the existence of ugliness, again, does not mean we should throw up our hands and say let’s wallow in it. Christ preached a striving for holiness. God is truth, goodness, and beauty. As Christians we need personally to imitate Christ as much as we can (by his enablement) in truth, goodness, and beauty.
I’m not angrily, judgmentally mad at Driscoll for what I consider are shortcomings in his ministry. I just think he’s wrong. Others who know me and my life can point out things about me that need correcting. When they come to me to point out my shortcomings, I can react bitterly and declare everyone around me to be hypocrites because they dared to judge me when they all sin as well. Or I can accept a little correction for my personal growth and for the common good of the body of Christ. Our lives as Christians are about joining Christ’s journey, not defending our own.
I am a conservative, southern baptist, and I have to say first of all, driscoll apologized for cussing, and doesn’t do it anymore. If we have to argue about what a cuss word is and what a cuss word is not, I think were probably missing the point.
Some pretty brazen and rather absolute statements were made above such as “Jesus did not eat with prostitutes and taxgatherers and sinners because he wanted to join in their sin. ” I totally agree but I think it is extremely far stretched and rather…ignorant…to say that Driscoll does! I don’t know where you got that driscoll doesn’t apologize, because he has. He “flaunts” some things, if you demand calling it that but some things need to be spoken aloud by someone, since so many other churches live in silence on the subjects.
“Since when have we felt the need to “discuss” things openly that even Scriptural writers didn’t comment on?” I’ll tell you when…since people have become so isolated in their shame and private sins, ashamed to speak out, figuring no one else struggles because it is never addressed. Sometimes, people need to hear the blatant and the crude, because they have questions and no one else will answer and they don’t know how to apply the general principles set forth in the Word to specific areas that aren’t addressed. Pornography is not spoken of in the Bible…so I guess it shouldn’t be addressed in the church.
“The church is not to be culturally out of touch, but at the same time not supposed to be so caught up in the world that there isnt a distinction.” Amen! I agree, and I also think it is a stretch and gross exaggeration to say that there is no distinction between the world and mark driscoll.
Seriously though, do we have nothing else better to talk about than whether it is “irreverent”or not to where casual clothes, or use impolite speech behind the pulpit. I think it’s all just a big distraction and John Macarthur, though I respect him, I think misses the mark in this particular article.
Sorry, Heather. I missed Driscoll apologizing.
But to some other things you said– Whether you agree or not, the statement “Jesus did not eat with prostitutes and taxgatherers and sinners because he wanted to join in their sin” is not extremely far stretched. That’s an absolute based on the biblical teaching of Christ’s sinless life. I suppose you are calling me ignorant because you assume I argue that Driscoll does try to join in sin. But I was not putting forth an argument; I was answering Jordan’s seemingly blatant assumption that because Jesus associated with sinners, we should not judge the actions of anyone.
The major portion of your comment, however, is devoted to having to address things in church through crudity because the Bible does not address them. That is incorrect, I think, on two levels. First, Ephesians tells us not to be crude. So arguing in favor of crudity based on cultural relativism is just plain anti-biblical. Second, the Bible’s main focus is on the principle of what it means to be a follower of Christ. Here is where I think not only Driscoll but many preachers, both progressive and traditional, seem to miss the boat. We seem to concentrate so heavily on symptomatic problems, offering help groups and programs for this sin and that, without getting at the heart of the problem which is a failure to have a changed mindset toward devotion to Christ. The book of Mark is a brilliant discussion about what it means to be a Christian. Denying self (taking up your cross), having a last place rather than first place attitude, and becoming like a child in total dependency on God are so often lost in our individual, selfish battles against pornography or whatever sin happens to be choking some group. The Bible’s timeless beauty is that it is relative to all cultural eras through its pro-message of what it means to follow Christ rather than an anti-message of just listing all the sins we shouldn’t do.
So, I disagree. Driscoll doesn’t have to get everybody thinking along the pornography lines in order to offer help. He should be getting people to think along biblical lines of dying to self in order to live for Christ.
When I said driscoll can be crude and needs to be crude, I was simply speaking of the topics he addresses such as: pornography, masturbation, fornication, and what is appropriate and not appropriate in marriage. (I think he couldn’t care less about being “polite”, which I give him major props for) Pornography, masturbation…so on…are all crude in themselves. The subjects themselves can be crude, and they might offend some listening who perhaps don’t struggle with them. I don’t it’s “through crudity” as much as it “is crudity”. Stick a whole bunch of women and men who have or are (which is the majority of people) struggling with such issues in a church service where the pastor never applies the gospel and biblical principles to those specific sins and many of them will walk away feeling jaded, not willing to open up, feeling isolated, and have no idea the person right next to them is in the same boat. All I’m saying is I think for a pastor to make black and white was is rapidly becoming gray in our culture, is much needed. I’m not saying he should make a list of do’s and dont’s and pretend like that is Christianity, and I don’t believe he does.
Let’s admit it,even if it’s sad, if it isn’t going to be addressed behind the pulpit, it most likely won’t be addressed in small groups, retreats…etc., and those who struggle are becoming more and more isolated. “Pray for one another that you may be healed” How is she going to be healed if she is too ashamed to reach out. How am I supposed to pray for my sister if I don’t know what she is struggling with. Shame is so strong in the body of Christ right now, in so many places, so many people I have talked to just want to know they are not the only one, fellowship brings so much healing, and I’m not just talking about “support groups” or w/e. I’m talking about the body of Christ working as it was designed to work.And a church can’t do that unless it gets knee deep in people’s dirty crude sins.
No one is perfect, but seriously, could MacArthur find no one else, or nothing else to rag on other than his brother in Christ? Isn’t the world offensive enough that we shouldn’t have to pick fights with our brothers. I mean c’mon, if you have issues with someone don’t post a public article about him. I guess it would be different if driscoll was in blatant sin, but this is more preference than anything. He preaches the whole truth, people just don’t like how he does it. His ministry is obviously fruitful, and the guy has counseled and helped more screwed up, vulgar, crude people than I have probably known in my life. I think the guy preaches on crude subjects because he sees the need.
Also, I’m sorry if I miscommunicated. I did not mean to sound like we need to address certain things because the Bible does not address them. I believe the Bible is sufficient enough to change and speak truth into all situations, sins, and circumstances. However, some do not know how to apply the principles set forth to their daily lives and decisions. No, the Bible does not address pornography in the sense that no where does it talk about looked at lustful pictures. Though it does say things like if a man look at a woman lustfully he has committed adultery with her in his heart…and other such principles. But just saying “God wants us to deny ourselves and live a life wholly devoted to Him” to a man who every night goes home only to ignore his kids and wife and sit in front of the computer for hours, longing for help, not knowing how to put to death such an enslaving sin, covered in shame and unable to verbalize to anyone his need for help. It WOULD help if the topic were addressed, the body of Christ was prepared and knew how to handle such situations (not just the pastor) and came around him to support him and restore him to faithful walking.
That’s all I’m saying, too often issues that aren’t addressed behind the pulpit, end up being neglected in the body of that specific church.
Does anybody really believe that Driscoll is the first pastor “behind a pulpit” (so-to-speak) to have helped anybody whose particular sin weakness was pornography, masturbation, homosexuality, adultery, or any other sexual sin? Really?
Do you really think all those pastors who may find fault with Driscoll have never helped people overcome sexual sin? Really?
Driscoll’s recent (past couple of years) criticism is not because he dared to be the only one in decades to approach the subject of pornography. It is his style, not his topic, that was criticized. That is what I meant by flaunting crudity. No matter how much we may like Driscoll, Ephesians does tell us not to be crude. And though Driscoll and his defenders appear to think that you can’t speak about crude subjects like adultery without being crude yourself, the Bible seems to demand the opposite.
When I argue that we should preach that “God wants us to deny ourselves and live a life wholly devoted to him” part of that may, indeed, be referencing specific sins. But if I am crude in my speech while telling someone else not to be crude in his/her sexual desires, I may lose rather than gain credibility, and I will definitely lose in a biblically-ordered life.
There is no doubt that certain pastors are not very good pastors. Therefore there is no doubt that the sexual sins amid some highly hypocritical congregations go unattended. But we have to take care not to fall victim to the pendulum principle. Errors at one extreme do not justify swinging to the opposite extreme. If one pastor does not address sexual problems, it does not mean that the next pastor should wallow in crudity in order to balance it out.
And just pointing to successes (people helped by Driscoll) does not justify his means any more than pointing to the one who has overcome sexual sin while under a pastor silent on sex justifies that ministry. Results don’t justify method. Following biblical principle both in what is taught AND in how it is taught should be the standard.
It’s so funny reading all these blogs because all these are just people expressing their different world views of Christ. You can tell the people who are “bullies” like John Macarthur and you can tell the ones who are “grungers” like Driscoll. It is so true that Paul used very harsh language in the New Testament. Just read the different letters to the churches. He talked about having sex with their own mother. Now come on people do you think he needed to write that or could he have waited to speak to them privately? NO he got it out in the open which is what Driscoll does. Do you think God had Isaiah call Israel a dirty tampon (which is what the hebrew word filthy rag was referring too)? NO he said it how it was. I agree Driscoll takes it too far at times with culturally relative things, but then he always owns up to it. He is a human being who is growing in the Lord just like John Macarthur. The problem is he Macarthur believes he has arrived on his journey. When was the last time Macarthur wrote something negative about himself or commented on a personal struggle he has? He never does because he uses the same acceptable, lame language Christians think they have to use “well were all sinners.” Instead Driscoll lays it out there, talks about his struggles and sins exactly what they are, and that is how people grow. Honesty with themselves and with others. No wonder unbelievers think were hypocrites, we use vague language like sin and struggle instead of sex, lies, lust, masturbation, etc…so when we fall they had no idea we had that problem. I suggest you all read a book called Samson and the Pirate Monks. The whole point is how we have created a culture within Christianity that we can’t talk about our faults in fear of condemnation instead of love. Keep it up Driscoll. Its not giving into the world to talk about real things.
Great point, Scott! We certainly must make sure we have only blind people leading the blind. We’re all sinners so, of course, we should all keep sinning to show we’re honest. It makes me wonder about whether Christ can really help us at all because, after all, he didn’t sin, so how could we possibly relate to him? I mean, we need a savior that has personal struggles with sin so that we can grow like Scott says. Who could possibly grow just by pointing to perfection? Why try to imitate Christ? There’s just no way we can! We need more faulty examples so it won’t be so hard to reach our goals.
It’s the same way in sports. It’s ridiculous for coaches to actually expect players to perform well. The best thing a coach can do is gather everyone together and just rejoice that we all drop the ball. You see, that’s the only way for a player to grow–he needs to be surrounded by people who constantly talk about how they drop the ball. How refreshing! No more burden of having to try to catch the thing!
Actually, that all was sarcasm. But it was not intended as an attack against Driscoll. Driscoll seems to have apologized for some things. Driscoll is honest enough to say he has faults, but presses on to eradicate faults from his life. The above sarcasm, then, is not about Driscoll. It is directed at the silly arguments that some people put up to defend Driscoll. How strangely ridiculous for people who supposedly are Christians to insist that “how people grow” must be from seeing and hearing about how their pastor sins rather than their pastor merely doing his job of helping people focus their eyes on a perfect, sinless Savior.
Going down a different road. You know what’s theologically at issue here is taking passages of scripture out of context and building “systems” on recorded experiences. I plan to Pastor or simply proclaim the whole Gospel of Christ with every opportunity. Both Dr. MacArthur and Pastor Driscoll are educated and insightful teachers of the Bible. Both are shepherd’s in the biblical sense, but neither are inerrant or uncontroversial. The difference is gifting and the Spirit’s individual leading. Just because we follow the same Christ does not me our steps and practices are the same as the “Vintage Church” or first century Christianity. The “Way” as it was once called simple was a journey of followers sharing their experiences with the risen Jesus. Jesus had different experiences with different people then and still does today. The Holy Spirit specifically is compared to wind in the Lord’s example because wind has the property of acting differently and being unexpected.
I do not advocate cussing, but cussing is language. Certain types of music are not my preference, but if music leads people to worship God then it good music. I wash my hands, but if I’m hungry I will eat even if my hands are filthy. Jesus consistently taught the religiously high minded that inside is what matters. He also taught that fruit, is how we should discern false teachers and anti-Christ. If Pastor Mark is feeding a flock with the word of God, leading people to saving faith and not committing heresy and grave sin, then let him preach and pray for his preaching.
If God is for us the who can be against us?
Jeff makes some good points and some that are a little suspect (e.g., the reason the HS is compared to wind is because wind acts differently and is unexpected???). But his second paragraph speaks closer to the heart of the whole disagreement. Based on that paragraph, I think the crux question comes down to this: Assuming a preacher does not commit heresy, should that preacher’s preaching ever be criticized?
For example let’s use a preacher who preaches a message about redemption or about the Christian’s struggle with, let’s say, pornography. During that message he makes a joke, or maybe not even a joke, but tells a story about something private between his wife and him. Is she wrong to criticize his use of that incident if the H.S. worked in the service and brought someone to a saving knowledge of Christ or helped someone understand how to overcome a lust drive for pornography? Would he be right in telling his wife that she should not dare criticize his preaching as long as people are being led to the Lord and he has advocated no heresy? I kinda don’t think so. Now broaden that to other misjudgments in the pulpit which involve other people or incidents or cross some biblical (though not necessarily heretical) line. Should not people tell their pastor, “Wait a minute”?
Take the Driscoll example. Driscoll apologized for “cussing.” He did so after rethinking its potential detrimental effect. But why did he rethink? It was because somebody brought it to his attention (actually many people). The result, then, was that good came from criticism despite all the enraged people who argue that Driscoll should be able to sin as much as he wants in the pulpit as long as some people get saved or helped.
Actually Jeff says he thinks Driscoll should be held to account if he commits a “grave” sin. And we know when it’s a “grave” sin because…um…well, I guess when the people in control tell us whether it is grave? Who decides? Many of the criticisms came from people who thought it was a “grave” sin for him to violate NT direction against crudity by presenting the Gospel with crudity. But Driscoll’s defenders say to leave him alone supposedly because the sin is not so grave. Again, who decides?
What bothers me, I guess, is that in Driscoll’s defense, pastors are arguing to just let it go. Makes me wonder whether their ministries will ever take a stand against sin, and, if so, how would they justify ignoring some sins while preaching against others.
I’m not a Driscoll hater. From what I understand, he provides a pretty good defense of some Gospel fundamentals. That’s great. I also don’t mind Driscoll doing things differently. And I would be just as quick (and have been) to take issue with MacArthur or anybody else who promotes doctrinal error or acts in an anti-biblical manner. This is not just about different styles as Jeff seems to think. If there is something biblically wrong–not just different, not just new–than it should be pointed out. But now it has been, and we can move on. I’m fine with dropping this topic and moving on. But the thing that keeps me coming back to it is not Driscoll but rather the vapid arguments of people trying to defend bad conduct by a preacher just because the guy is a preacher.
This article would make more sense if Mark Driscoll actually was guilty of being “worldly”. That is the problem with the American church, we care more about tradition than Jesus being exalted, and the gospel reaching the ends of the earth. What would John MacArthur say to the prophets of the Old Testament that used “crude” language? Or John the Baptist, or Paul when he tells the Galatians that he wishes the false teachers would “emasculate themselves”? Jesus uses offensive language and drank alcohol. None of these people were concerned with how a person dresses,or if they use culture to expand God’s Kingdom. I typically like John MacArthur, but he is dead wrong and needs to repent of his sin of pride and self righteousness in this area.
WOW! This blog is a wild ride! I have for years read John MacArthur’s books. And I have to say I have never found anything unbiblical in his works. On the contrary, I have found him very discerning in spiritual matters. I have also listened extensively to Mark Driscoll’s sermons, and read several of his books. And I’ve honestly tried to see his viewpoints and understand his heart. And I would like to believe his heart is right in wanting to serve the Lord. But I have to agree with Mr. MacArthur’s critique and exposure of Mr. Driscoll’s errors. To accuse Mr. MacArthur of having sins of pride and self-righteousness for doing so is wrong, and very judgmental.
I hold no personal dislike for Mr. Driscoll, and I pray for him. But loyalty most go first and foremost to Jesus and what He has specifically said in His word. The excuse I’ve often heard for Mr.Driscoll, even from friends of mine who attend his church, is that “he is young and still growing in the Lord, aren’t we all?”. Totally ignored is the clear requirement of God that an overseer must not be a novice, must be blameless, must have a good reputation with the unsaved (1Tim.3:1-7). Yet Mr. Driscoll’s popularity to the unsaved world is for his foul language. Even the world knows that isn’t Christian behavior. Even his followers acknowledge that. For that reason alone, he does not qualify to be an overseer, let alone to be in the pulpit. Judgmental you say? This is God’s rule, not mine. God also forbids coarse jesting (dirty jokes, etc.). Indeed He forbids any unwholesome words to come out of our mouths, yet I have personally been offended at Mr. Driscoll’s repeated sexual joking from the pulpit, and his use of totally unnecessary vulgar language. His is the exact kind of stuff I used to hear (and say) in my degenerate high school days. One wonders how anyone ever received the Gospel without resorting to such gutter talk. Jesus didn’t use offensive language in this sense, because He would be contradicting His own word in doing so (same applies to Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John, etc.). People were offended at Jesus because He claimed to be God Himself. People were offended because He exposed their sins (and nowhere did He use gutter talk in doing so). And as I read this blog, I see many are offended at MacArthur because he is exposing some errors of Driscoll. Paul rebuked Peter publicly for his error. Paul sometines named names when he rebuked people in churches who were leading others astray, even naming some to be turned over to Satan so they would learn not to blaspheme (1Tim.1:20). The purpose of rebuke is to call to repentance. Not to condemn, but to correct them that they may be sound in the faith (Titus 1:13), which is what Mr. MacArthur has done. And Mr. MacArthur has done so publicly, because Mr. Driscoll has been diseminating errors publicly.
Jesus isn’t impressed by our claims, or by our works. He said many will call Him “Lord”, and even do many wonderful works in His name. What does He think of them? He says “depart from me, I never knew you, you who work iniquity” (Matt.7:21-23) To Jesus, it doesn’t matter if we claim to believe in Him, or even if we do ministry in His name. If we are also doing what He has forbidden in His word, He says we are none of His. It is unbiblical to say “hey, we all love Jesus, that’s all that matters”, because Jesus says that isn’t so. He says “if you love Me, keep my commandments”. In other words, talk is cheap, if we truly love Him, show it by being obedient to His word (evidence of true repentance). If a pastor uses forbidden speech as mentioned above, then no matter how many he is “reaching”, no matter how much he may insist “it’s all about Jesus”, he is showing his flagrant disregard for God’s word. And in doing so, he is presenting a “Christianity” that says it’s OK to do what God forbids, as long as you’re bringing them to Christ, and to affirm that you “love Jesus”. What crazy kind of “Christianity’ is that?
I’ve also been offended at the flippant, irreverent manner with Mr. Driscoll handles God’s holy word, turning much of it into standup comedy, (jokes about Noah being drunk in his tent, jokes about Jesus’ humanity, jokes about bible accounts being like “trashy daytime television talk show”, etc., etc., etc.). This isn’t “reaching the lost” by “contextualizing” the message. It’s sending an entirely different message altogether.
There seems to be a prevailing attitude that as long as people are coming to Christ, that’s all that matters. That, somehow, if a church is growing in numbers, it must be “blessed” by God. Have we forgotten that Jesus said Sardis had a name that they were “alive” (alive in Christ, perhaps a happening church that people were excited to come to), yet Jesus said they are really dead! He’s not impressed with numbers, marketing strategies to “take the city for Christ”, making the church “seeker friendly”, or making the Gospel attractive to the unsaved. He is most concerned about obedience to His word. He’ll take care of the rest. He will add to His church those whom He will.
This is not about two different styles of preaching. It’s not about pointing fingers and friendly fire. It’s about being faithful to God’s word (not a Pharisaical concept). It’s about repentance (and showing evidence of it), sanctification, obedience, loving God and His word above men, understanding the very character of Jesus, and contending earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
I pray for Mark Driscoll, and for John MacArthur. I love them both. But for the sake of the Gospel, Mark Driscoll needs to repent, pull all his offensive material off his website, pull material that teaches false doctrine off his recommended reading list at his Resurgence site, step down from the pulpit until such time that he can sufficiently mature to the point where he can preach God’s word in purity and truth.
MARK DRISCOLL HAS REPENTED!
I have posted his story of repentance here. Please defer any further comments to that article.