First Episcopal Woman Leader On Gays & God

The orthodox Anglicans and evangelical Episcopalians intensified Sunday as the ECUSA elected the Reverend Katharine Schori, the Diocese of Nevada, as the first woman to serve as Presiding Bishop of the 2.3 million-member Episcopal Church. The move is being hailed as a victory for the liberal wing of the church, and it comes even as the church is embroiled in yet another controversy over its election of an openly-homosexual bishop in 2003, Rev. Gene Robinson. She will formally take office later this year.

Schori said on Monday she believed homosexuality was no sin and homosexuals were created by God to love people of the same gender.

Interviewed on CNN, Jefferts Schori was asked if it was a sin to be homosexual.

“I don’t believe so. I believe that God creates us with different gifts. Each one of us comes into this world with a different collection of things that challenge us and things that give us joy and allow us to bless the world around us,” she said.

“Some people come into this world with affections ordered toward other people of the same gender and some people come into this world with affections directed at people of the other gender.”

Jefferts Schori’s election seemed certain to exacerbate splits within a Episcopal Church that is already deeply divided over homosexuality with several dioceses and parishes threatening to break away.

It could also widen divisions with other Anglican communities, including the Church of England, which do not allow women bishops.

In the worldwide Anglican church women are bishops only in Canada, the United States and New Zealand. The Robinson issue has been particularly criticized in Africa where the church has a growing membership and where homosexuality is often taboo.

Jefferts Schori, who was raised a Roman Catholic and graduated in marine biology with a doctorate specialization in squids and oysters, supported the consecration of Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, the first openly gay bishop in more than 450 years of Anglican history.

One leading conservative, the Bishop of Fort Worth, the Rev. Jack Iker, said in The Telegraph News, “She will be the only woman among 38 primates and the majority of them do not even recognise women bishops. This is going to be very difficult for the Archbishop of Canterbury.”

The Church has been given until the end of the convention on Wednesday to toe the conservative line on homosexuality or face expulsion. The fact is that hermeneutical decisions link the issues of female ordination and the ordination of homosexual persons.

Albert Mohler appeared on Larry King Live last Thursday (June 15, 2006) debating on a 6-person panel on this issue of homosexuality and the bible with Rev. Gene Robinson also on the panel. Below is an abridged transcript, with the full versio available here.

LARRY KING, HOST: Good evening. Like so much of the country, the Episcopal Church is in turmoil over gay rights. It first came to a head three years ago when openly gay Gene Robinson was confirmed as the church’s ninth bishop of New Hampshire. His confirmation at an official Episcopal gathering in 2003 triggered a walk out by some conservatives and at the Episcopal General convention now going on in Columbus, Ohio, many church officials are saying that a split is inevitable.

We have a major panel to discuss this.

• In Columbus is Bishop Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church.
• Here in Los Angeles, Reverend Jo Hudson. Joe is pastor of the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, Texas, one of the Texas’s largest predominantly gay churches in the United States. She’s an ordained member in the United Church of Christ.
• In Washington is Andrew Sullivan, “Time” magazine columnist, openly gay Catholic. His blog site by the way is andrewsullivan.com.
• In Columbus, Ohio is Reverend Canon David Anderson, president and CEO of the Anglican American Council who opposes gay clergy in the church.
• In Los Angeles, Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic priest, host of the Word and the World.
• And in Roanoke, Virginia, Reverend Al Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

KING: Canon Anderson, since we’re told that God loves everyone, that would have to include gay people. What do you have against Bishop Robinson being a bishop in your church?

ANDERSON: Well, God certainly loves Gene Robinson. Gene Robinson is a child of God just as I am and others are. But the fact is that certain aspects of his life, in particular, his being an open homosexual, disqualify him for leadership in the Christian church, not just the Anglican Church, but in the Christian church, and it’s that part that disqualifies him from leadership. God would love to see him transformed. God doesn’t create a person homosexual. How they become homosexual or feel that inclination is unclear, but certainly people can be transformed back to a heterosexual life.

KING: If it’s a choice, Canon Anderson, did you choose to be heterosexual and if so, how do you choose it?

ANDERSON: I think the heterosexualists, the standard default setting, if you will, and whether you start with scripture and God’s account of how things were created or, in fact, if you start with Charles Darwin and evolution, you come to the same point, that men were meant for women and women were meant for men.

KING: Reverend Jo Hudson, you’ve heard our two distinguished members of the Episcopal faith. You’re with the United Church of Christ. Where does that denomination stand?

HUDSON: Well, the denomination is radically different than the Episcopal Church in that the denomination lets congregations be self- determining and so they are in relationship by virtue of the fact that they covenant to be in relationship and to honor each other even though we may disagree.

KING: So United Church of Christ in Miami could say no gays, and the one in Dallas as yours, could say yes?

HUDSON: Absolutely.

KING: Andrew Sullivan, what do you make of all of this? You’re a Catholic.

ANDREW SULLIVAN, TIME COLUMNIST: I am a Catholic and people often ask me, how can you be openly gay and be a Catholic? And my response is always I’m openly gay, because I’m a Catholic, because God taught me not to bear false witness to who I am and my faith is something that I really have no choice over. I’ve tried. I’ve had a terrible struggle with my own faith, but God wouldn’t let me go and he keeps bringing me back and he keeps saying to me, in the Eucharist and in the church I love you and you belong here. And I want you to have a loving relationship and I feel that my own relationship is a gift from God. I cannot alone in my conscience before God believe otherwise. So I can do no other. I’m here because I have no choice.

KING: Reverend Mohler, why has the Southern Baptist, and you’ve been with us before, why does someone being gay bother you? In other words, what does it matter what someone’s sexual preference might be when they are good people?

REV. ALBERT MOHLER: Well, the first thing should never be what really bothers me but whether or not as Christians, God has set a standard to which we are obligated. The issue is, always has been and always will be, the authority of scripture. The scripture very clearly tells us that our creator has a purpose for our sexuality and that homosexuality among other sins is a violation of that purpose and so love compels us to tell people the truth and also, as we understand the depth of their struggle with this, to tell them that there is a way out. I’m very thankful that Andrew Sullivan feels that pull. I believe that’s a pull towards repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and I pray to see that continue all the way until he finds what I believe his purpose to be as God intended.

KING: Reverend Mohler, how could something be a sin if you didn’t choose it?

MOHLER: Well, actually, that’s just something I can’t accept in the sense of choosing. Larry I have to say, first of all, we’re choosing all the time. Even in the moments we spend together here, we’re making moral choices. I do understand that there are some choices that we make that seem to be prior to anything we can even understand and I understand there are many homosexuals who say I don’t even have any impression of having chosen this erotic interest, this sexual orientation. I accept that at face value, but that does not mean that it normalizes and makes acceptable homosexual acts. I want to help them through that struggle regardless of how it came into their lives.

SULLIVAN: Larry, may I say the scripture is clear and scripture says that I should be put to death. The very verse that says that shalt not lie with another man as one does with a woman, says that I should face the death penalty. That’s clear. Is that the policy of Reverend Mohler and the other gentlemen? Why is that not taken seriously?

KING: Reverend Mohler, isn’t a lot of this your interpretation of it?

MOHLER: There is always the danger that we will read our interpretation of it. That’s why for one thing we’re dependent upon how Christians have read the scriptures for centuries in which there has been a universal consensus about what the scriptures had to say about sexuality. The old testament text you mentioned were addressed to the ancient theocracy of Israel. If we were the ancient theocracy of Israel, we would be obligated to those texts, but we are Christians here talking about the church in the new testament and there we find the amazing teaching from the apostle Paul that we’re made up as the church as those who come from many different kinds of sins, all of us, as sinners, speaking of homosexuality, as well as swindlers and others, Paul said such were some of you, speaking to Christians.

KING: Reverend Mohler, why rail out against homosexuals since you have your own sins?

MOHLER: Well, I don’t believe I do rail out against homosexuals. I’m obligated to teach the whole council of God about everything that God declares to be sin. It is however, as Canon Anderson said earlier, when we’re talking about qualifications for leadership in the church, God has revealed certain particular issues that are of great importance to him and thus for the church and we are obligated to those things. It’s not a matter of talk about sinners or those who are not sinners. It’s a matter of talking about sinners who are saved by grace, sinners who have repented of their sin and the message of the gospel is that all who repent of their sin and come by faith to the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. That’s the (INAUDIBLE) each of us comes with our own story.

KING: Andrew Sullivan, do you feel tormented by it?

SULLIVAN: I have in the past to be perfectly honest with you, of course. When you’re told as a child that what you know to be yourself is somehow evil and wrong, it’s a terrible wound that the church places in the souls of so many young people and it continues to torment those souls and one of the things that one can do as a believing person of faith, who is also gay, is to tell those kids out there, do not despair. God does loves you. Do not believe some of the things that are taught to you. Know in your heart who you are and that God loves you and don’t listen to this. One thing I want to say is that being gay is not about sex as such, although that’s part of it. It’s a tiny part of it. What it’s about, my relationship is about love and friendship and commitment and fidelity and all the virtues that we’re called for and called to in our tradition. And God’s creation is more diverse than we understand and I think we should have a little bit more humility in the face of God’s creation than some of the things we’ve been hearing about tonight. We don’t know what God necessarily means by nature. We’re learning all sorts of things about what nature is. Maybe homosexuality as it’s part of so many other species, is a part of nature, part of what God created and he want us to be whole and part of that human family.

KING: Bishop Robinson, do you think Jesus would embrace you today?

ROBINSON: Absolutely. Let’s be very clear and Canon Anderson knows this, in fact, Jesus violated his scriptures quite often. That’s why he got into such trouble. He was always associating with those who had been pushed to the margins of his society, looked down upon as being sinful and unclean. He spent time with them. And he drove the religious authorities of his day crazy because he was not following scripture as he had learned it as a child, but, in fact, was reinterpreting it through the lens of God’s love. And, we follow a person who was always reinterpreting scripture and letting people know that it’s the spirit of what’s going on in one’s heart that is the real key and when he said love one another as I have loved you, it means that we need to be moving to the margins, doing justice work, working against racism. All kinds of things that Jesus would be doing in this day and time. I have no question in my mind that Jesus considers me beloved. Just as I am.

KING: Do you think we’re moving toward marriage of gays, Reverend Hudson?

HUDSON: I think ultimately it will happen. Actually, the reality is, that gay and lesbian people have been standing in holy places for centuries with priests present, surrounded by family and friends, being blessed in their covenant relationships. What is at work here, it’s not about marriage, it is about taxpayers who are being denied their civil rights.

KING: Atlanta, hello?

CALLER: Hi, Larry. I have a question for the panel. Romans 25, 26, and 27 clearly states about homosexuality and them changing god’s word into a lie. Who gave anyone the authority to change the word of God and interpret it the way you want, when the scriptures, Romans 25, 26 and 27, clearly state about homosexuality. It’s an abomination.

HUDSON: Actually, I think it’s important to note that over time, if you look at the development of scripture and if you look at how people have interpreted it and how, and you can go back and look, over time, the different translations from the original texts, you will see that the word homosexual actually comes into the scripture much later. That the original Greek has to do with an act of abuse of younger people for sexual purposes. And that the word homosexual is gradually brought into scripture, that condemns a whole group of people, and you can trace that very clearly through time as we move up into present day and how that word is finally introduced into scripture.

HUDSON: My relationship is wholly and completely natural to me. It is exactly who I believe God has created me to be. And I have a wonderful, living, dynamic relationship with God. And I know, in the core of my being, that the most natural way for me to be, is exactly who I am.

KING: Reverend Mohler, don’t you sympathize with that?

MOHLER: I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there is only one way that can happen through Jesus Christ and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it. A church that buys into the logic of Bishop Griswold is a church that’s obligated to ordain homosexuals openly and unrepentant or anyone else because it’s moved away from the clear authority of scripture.

A church that worships diversity is a church that’s destined to accept a death null because the church itself is grounded in truth. The true church always celebrates the truth. I’m thankful there are many conservative, orthodox Episcopalians who celebrate that truth and want to obey the truth. In the main, the big truth is not the interpretation of scripture but whether we obey it or not.

SULLIVAN: And we’re trying to bear witness to that truth. And we are doing so with our lives and with our souls and we’re opening them up to tell the world who we are, and if we’re rejected, then so be it, but God won’t reject us and we have a duty to tell the truth. There is no commandment that says thou shalt not be gay, but there is a commandment that says that shalt not bear false witness and I will not bear falls witness to who I am.

And I will not as a Catholic be thrown out of my home and my church and my faith and my communion because of who I am. Because of how God made me and that’s the bottom line, father, and I understand there is diversity and I respect that. And I understand your faith. But we’re not leaving and we exist and we’re here and we’re human.

KING: We have another caller in Denver. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, I’m in a committed relationship of 24 years. I was raised Southern Baptist, my partner is Catholic. However, we’re not welcomed in a church and I just wondered why or how we’re not welcomed in a church of worship, when so many people like myself are not welcomed in a church and some are not welcomed in society, and look at suicide and how we’re not welcomed in a church of God.

HUDSON: You would be very welcomed at the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, Texas.

KING: Bishop Robinson, would they be welcomed in the Episcopal church in Denver?

ROBINSON: You bet they would. We have signs in every little town and every large city that says the Episcopal church welcomes you. There is no asterisk after that listing, the people who are exceptions. It means everyone is welcomed and we’re a church that’s struggling to make that kind of reality true for us and on behalf of God everywhere.

KING: Do you ever see the Baptists changing, Reverend Mohler?

MOHLER: Well, I hope not on this regard because it comes under the authority of scripture, but I know the one thing that must not change is this, as one sinner saved by grace to other sinners, I say come to Jesus Christ and come no newness of life. It will change your sex life, for everyone. It will change every dimension of your life and that’s by the grace and mercy of God.

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